I was thrilled when ASMP asked me to lead a webinar all about the fine art of the pitch, particularly how to win more bids. I have been a rep for more than 12 years and I have to be honest, I’ve won a lot of bids for my artists, but I've lost some and I've learned a lot along the way. In my presentation I break down the bidding process and how to win more bids, in 5 easy steps. Below is a screen recording of the webinar, co-hosted by my dear friend, Creative Director Brian Bergeron.
From the Canon Webinar Business Series: Pitching By Design
Featuring: Artist Agent, Jenna Teeson & Creative Director, Brian Bergeron
October 21, 2020
MARIANNE (M): Hello and welcome to Pitching By Design! This is part of our Canon webinar business series. We had a recording glitch with the first recording of this, so Jenna and I thought that we would re-record the beginning to make sure you got all the information and we're hoping to give you a few extra nuggets of information as well. About halfway through you'll be connected again with the original recording and will be able to hear Brian Bergeron talking about how design plays into all of this and also showing some actual examples of work. We’re really excited about this! Thank you Jenna for taking the time to do this with us. I wanted to quickly reintroduce our speakers.
We have Jenna Teeson from Teeson Reps. She has a strong history of supporting photographers, including the photo editor for National Geographic. Her clients have included Liberty Mutual, Keurig, CVS, and Jack Daniels. She represents a really great group of photographers with Teeson Reps.
She will be joined later on the original recording by Brian Bergeron, who is the principal designer of b-havior. Brian is experienced on both sides of this equation, working with photographers and also with brands. His clients include the Natural History Museum of LA, Twitter, and Sotheby's. We're really happy to have Brian with us on the original part of this recording. I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Jenna. I'm looking forward to having a little deeper conversation about this. Go ahead, Jenna.
JENNA (J): Thank you Marianne! Good afternoon! I’m thrilled to have the opportunity to again talk about my favorite thing, which is winning more work. Over the next hour Brian and I will break down the steps of the bidding process and give you tips on how to navigate them. I have been a rep for more than 12 years and I have to be honest, I’ve won a lot of bids for my artists, but I've lost some and I've learned a lot along the way.
So, let's talk about a well-designed plan to win more bids. I like to think of the bidding process and your opportunity to pitch your work to clients as five easy steps. The first step is your phone ringing; your marketing works, but now what? The second is the elusive creative call. The third step is the dreaded numbers conversation. The fourth is the all-important pitch deck or bid treatment. Brian and I at the end of this spend a lot of time on this point and we even review some real ones for you. The fifth and final step is success. And then the fun part begins—that’s the production or shooting.
Step one, your phone rings, or more than likely these days you receive an email from a prospective client. This is where the butterflies happen, you do that little dance in your studio. But it's really time to buckle down. It's important to remember that this process is much like a job interview and every part of this communication will be scrutinized. In this initial step you will communicate with the client in order to receive all of the specs of the job and in all of that communication you should always project a sense of confidence and curiosity, as well as preparation. A prospective client wants to know you’ve navigated this process before and that you know the right questions to ask. They want to know that you have confidence in your ability to produce and shoot this project.
During this part of the communication, I'm always sure to reference recent shoots that are similar to what this client is looking for so they know this is something that we can do and actually have done many times before. I always want them to feel my confidence so that they can be reassured that they made the right decision in including us in the bid. Prospective clients are always excited to hear curiosity in your voice. I hear this over and over again from art producers. They want to know you were listening to what they're telling you about their concepts and maybe even offer your own insight. They want to hear that you're preparing for the next steps, and those steps include the elusive creative call.
I think Marianne, you might have some questions for me about this first step, this intake step.
M: Yeah, definitely. Before we move on to the next slide, we talked about curiosity and that really brought a question to my mind. When should the photographer invest in research about the client or the project? Should it be before this call or after this call, and how deep should they be digging?
J: Of course. In a perfect world, this call will come from a client that you have researched and gone after. Maybe it's an agency that you’ve shown your work at or a client that you've called and spoken with in the past. But often it's a call that comes out of the blue and it's a brand that you are not yet familiar with. So, I think it's important to do research as soon as that email comes in, before you even respond, so you have a sense of who this client is or what the brand has and what they're doing now. But I say that with a little hesitation because I think you should not assume that a brand is looking for a creative that's similar to what they're showing now. Often, they're calling a new photographer because they want to change something about their look. So, you shouldn't be quick to make assumptions about what you see either on their social presence or on their website or at point of purchase.
M: That's a really good tip. They’re obviously calling you for what you have to offer and if it doesn’t match what they’ve done in the past, perhaps they’re looking for something new.
J: Exactly. Yeah.
M: Okay, so let’s look at the next slide
J: The elusive creative call! [laughs]
M: There it is! [laughs]
J: Yes! I had phone calls with a few art producers when I was planning what to say to you all and they all said the creative call is so important. It's almost as important as the pitch deck, the treatment that you're going to send them as the last step. But this is your time for a live pitch of your work to the creative team. At this point they’ve seen maybe your print portfolio, for sure your website. They’ve seen the work, but this is when they want to get a sense for who you are and what you'll be like to work with in both the pre-production and on the shoot. Those are stressful times and they're very important times for the client and they want to know that you'll be a good partner. So, you have to think, are you professional in the way you handle yourself on this call? Do you have the experience to manage a production like this? They'll be thinking of that as they’re hearing your answers to their questions.
On this call, what creatives are most looking for is to get a sense of if a photographer is a good collaborator, that she'll work with the creative team to elevate and deliver the concepts. Absolutely no egos allowed here, [laughs] leave those at home. This is a time to be curious, and I use this word a lot and art producers use this word a lot. This is really important to prospective clients. Be curious about who this client is and what they need you to communicate with your pictures. Do your homework. We just talked about this. In advance of the call, research the brand, but also really absorb the creative brief that they sent to you because that will indicate any sort of changes in the look of this brand. So you'll see what is already existing, maybe out there in the world, on their website, but then you're going to see what this creative brief tells you in terms of what this campaign is about. I always say you should join a call with at least three questions prepared so be really curious about what they’re asking of you. And the answers to all of these will help you prepare your bid presentation.
Also on this call, it will help the client to know that you want this job, that you're taking this seriously. A senior art producer from a national agency recently told me that story and I wanted to tell it to you today because I think it highlights the importance of the creative call. She told a story about a particular bid for a global brand, it was a big job. They had identified seven photographers to bid, but they had one they really wanted to shoot it. This person was going to be the recommend to the client. His portfolio was absolutely the best match to the creative concept and all he had to do was to nail the creative call. I will spoil the story and tell you that he did not. I think there's a lot to learn from this. He missed the professionalism step by taking the call from his car, with a dying cell phone battery, and no charger. Devastating. He listened to what the creative team was saying, but didn't have any feedback. She said he had no questions prepared to ask the creative team. So, he didn't demonstrate any curiosity and no sense of collaboration, didn’t really have any feedback on the concepts. So the producer told me that when the call ended, which was abruptly because this photographer’s cell phone died in the middle of the creative call, they just crossed him off the list. They didn't even pass him along to the client as an option.
It's a sad story, but I think a lot of lessons can be learned from that and I think it's important to always remember that this creative call is your opportunity to show your value as a creative and a collaborator and to help them know that you should be the one to win the bid. I think that if you’ve navigated this step and the first step, then you're in a good position to have a really candid conversation about the budget.
Before that Marianne, I bet you have a question about this, the elusive creative call.
M: Yeah I think, I mean all of this is such great information. I think the professionalism—it sounds so simple to say it, but making sure you’re on time, all those little things add up and that's half the battle. If you can win that battle, then you can have the creative call, which is, I think, where we all want the decisions to be made.
J: Yeah. I think that the way you handle yourself on this call is a window for them to see how you might behave on set; in pre-production and on set, your level of professionalism. So it tells them a lot.
M: Yeah. Great tips. Thank you! Are we ready for the next slide?
J: The dreaded budget conversation.
M: Here we go!
J: [laughs] The absolute most important part of this is to have respect for the prospective client. This is not the time to sound greedy or angry. It should be an honest conversation about what type of shoot the client has budgeted for. I like to relate this to buying a dress. When a client calls and asks, “What does a lifestyle shoot cost?” it's really no different than saying, “What does a party dress cost?” You can buy a dress at Old Navy or you can buy a dress at Prada. Of course, they’re very different price points, but they're both dresses you can wear to a party. So, I try to skirt around that question and instead ask them questions about what type of production they budgeted for. Those questions go much deeper than just, “What's the intended usage?” But, right off the bat: What type of production are you looking for? Do you want to use models or real people? Are we shooting in the client's house or can we scout location? How many wardrobe changes are you looking for? The answers to those questions really give me a sense for how large of a production a client is prepared to pay for. Then it helps me understand where their total budget might shake out, generally.
But, of course, I always just come right out and say, “Do you have a specific budget for this project?” They very well might be evasive and that's totally fine and I think my advice to you is allow that to be okay. At least you're going to walk away from the conversation with the answers to the questions that you previously asked. It really will tell you a lot about what they can afford and what they’ve budgeted.
Most importantly, know your worth and I think that you can then have this conversation with ease because you can be willing to walk away from a job that will not pay your bills or might be below the market value. I can go on about this, but probably for another time. I know that ASMP does a really nice job of hosting webinars to cover this topic. It's an important one because we all have a responsibility to help educate clients about the value of what we do.
M: Great information. Thank you, Jenna. Are we ready for our next?
J: Yeah! So, assuming the budget seems realistic and you're still excited to be considered for this project, now it's time to pitch yourself visually. I call this a bid treatment, some people call it a pitch deck, but most importantly art producers say this is required for more than 75% of the jobs they bid out and it's a really important part of their decision about which photographer to choose.
Brian has lots of insight on this as he has worked from both the photographer’s point of view, helping folks like me prepare these treatments, and also on client side, receiving these and considering them for his clients. I’m excited for you all to hear what Brian has to say.
M: This webinar was born out of a conversation that I had had with a client who had asked me to do some video, which I don’t normally do. So, I had partnered with a production company here in Rhode Island and they put our bids together and what they sent me back was this amazing pitch deck. I immediately thought, “Wow it would be such a great way to, as an industry, bring up the value of photography and professionalism even at any level.” I think that some of my clients would probably think this is going overboard, and I also think that I probably have clients that don't know that they wanted this in their lives because it's so awesome.
I'm really looking forward to passing this recording off to the original recording from October 21st. You're going to hear Brian talk about why this pitch deck or bid treatment is so important and all the parts of it. He'll also be showing you some examples. So, thanks for catching up with us, hope you enjoy the second part.
BRIAN (B): Hello everybody! I think I'll start off by explaining what I'm looking for in a bid treatment and what exactly it is. So Jenna spoke about the creative call, which is 100% an information-gathering and it's also your initial pitch. The bid treatment is a reflection for me that the photographer understands what I'm asking for and that they’re illustrating that through the way they're speaking about the project, our collaboration, any sort of imagery that they’re talking about for inspiration. And at the end of the day, the cost estimate, as well as the final deliverable. That's all spelled out in this bid treatment. For me that's first and foremost what I'm looking for.
Secondly, and nearly as paramount, is that the photographer is able to demonstrate that they're capable of doing this job. I like your portfolio, I've called you, and we’ve had a conversation. Now, here's my relevant example, here’s how I'm going to approach it so that you feel confident that we're going to get this done on time and on budget.
Then, lastly, how do you as the photographer — as what I consider a fellow creative — intend to approach this project? I may tell you I need you to do X, Y, and Z and it needs to look like blah, blah, blah. But what are you going to do to execute it exactly the way I want? What are you potentially bringing to the table as a photographer who is bidding against other photographers? What are you personally doing to add to the creative end result? What would this project look like through your lens, through your eyes?
Why is this important? I should say that this bid treatment– sometimes you have a certain number of people on a creative call, and then you send over a bid treatment with a cost estimate that could potentially just go to the art producer, but it could also go to many other people. You’re kind of sharing your context on the project with potentially more than just me. It's something to have in mind as you're developing this. Having just a cost estimate on the project may be presented to a couple of different people who don't have all the knowledge on the specific project, so it's just something to keep in mind. It does get passed around. [laughs]
My philosophy on working with photographers, or illustrators, or excetera is that I'm a creative, I have my own vision, but I'm really looking to collaborate with somebody to bring my ideas or the organization’s ideas to life. My goal is that the person that we select is going to amplify my vision. It's not just going to satisfy and check off the box for my vision, but it's actually going to make it even better than I imagined. I think it is important that it should illustrate that it will achieve the goals that we’re setting forth for the project.
Then, like I was just mentioning earlier, what are your special skills that you bring to the table? Are you amazing with getting the best out of people? Do you have a sense of fashion? These are the types of things that are specific to you as a person and as a fellow creative that will support and amplify our project. I’m always really interested in that. Because again—Jenna said about seven photographers bidding for a project—what are the key ways, in addition to your work, and maybe that sometimes don't come across in your work?
I just did a shoot at the Natural History Museum and our photographer was just magical at being able to pull out the expression from our models and actors. That's something you can talk about and be able to point out some of the things that in your portfolio maybe doesn't come across that you actually are responsible for those types of things. That’s the way that it's important for me specifically.
In terms of the content, yes it should have the cost outline, all of the costs and assumptions for the project. There is nothing worse than getting the email after the shoot that says, “Oh, we have these additional costs, these addendums, these things that need to be clarified that have not been at least a conversation prior to the final invoice.” I know that there is scope creep, I know that there's things that happen on set, etcetera. But 100% that should be talked about before you receive a final invoice and hopefully, you get most of that into the initial bid treatment and estimate. It should include any timelines, expectations—including kickoff meeting, production, number of days for the shoot, when the images will be delivered, and turn around for any post-production if you're responsible for that.
I’m keenly interested and aware of what your creative approach is going to be. I get really excited about when photographers provide mood boards as inspiration. It doesn't have to be explained the way you're going to light something, etcetera.
Particularly in this time of COVID, it's really important to get a clear understanding of who your team is. Is it you? An assistant? Is there a tech involved? If there’s video; because of the space limitations. Specifically for this last museum shoot, we could only have 10 people in one space at one time, so it's important to understand who is on your team separate from the actual talent and anybody else who's in the room, including myself. [laughs]
One thing that I think— and we'll see this in one of the pitch decks—is the idea of here’s the cost of what we need to get the job done. Should you need additional b-roll, or you need some quick footage for Instagram or something like that, here is an additional proposal and additional cost. You’re upselling; you're covering what the client wants, but then they could want this after-the-fact and maybe I can try to get that included in the initial project bid. You're clearly stating what the client wants, but then you're potentially offering up other packages too, that the client may not be immediately thinking about and might be inspired to go and find more budget for. You should definitely outline final deliverables and usage for those imagery. You want to be really clear and careful about where or how these images are to be used.
Then, I think it's really important to talk about either your relationship to the brand that you're pitching to, or your excitement and finding some relatable way to talk about yourself as a collaboration with the brand. I think it’s doing a little bit of research about what their latest campaign was, a social-media thing that they did. Being able to mention that is an additional hook and a way to get people hooked in.
On the design side, because I do proposals for several photographers, and also because I'm looking at these proposals, it's very important the way it's laid out clearly, that you have spaces between sections, you have your schedule, you have your bid. It's fine to have it on multiple pages. It's more important to have one point of focus if you're describing one shot, and you have a mood board, and you have relevant images, you could have it all together on one page. It's important to tell the story of how you're going to approach the project at the start, rather than just, I'm going to do X Y and Z in a bulleted session. You should keep your copy clear and concise.
This is basic, but my personal preference is to keep your presentations horizontal. Again, it goes back to the fact that your presentation may be shared. In this virtual world that we're living in now, everything's on either Google Hangouts and Zoom and it’s horizontal format, unless you’re on your mobile phone. But I feel like that is going to best represent it. You can get it as large as possible on those presentation screens. Then one thing from my experience working at Twitter, when they reach out for advertisers—like with Twitter + Gatorade in their presentation—they’ll actually change some graphic in the lower thirds that they did, so that it was the brand colors. It was Gatorade’s color and it had Twitter + Gatorade in graphically as a constant reminder that you’re designing this presentation, tailoring it specifically for them and not copying and pasting.
That is it on that side. We’re going to go right into some reviewing of presentations next. Great!
J: Thank you to Kelly Davidson who submitted this. She was booked for a job today so she's not able to join us on the webinar. But we are recording, so she will get to hear your feedback Brian. [laughs]
J: This is a multiple page document. I can scroll through as you’re ready, but here’s her opening page.
B: Right away, this is a collaboration. That's identified with the logos and graphics, which I find understandable and clear. Then Kelly goes right into her bio and talking about relevant experience, it's clear. This is probably where I would maybe recommend adding a statement again about the collaboration with the company that she's pitching here. I think that could either precede this or could go right alongside this bio, for lack of a better word. It does go right into locations. It jumps right into that. I think it is interesting that that's the order, to be frank. I feel like it's a little bit jarring to go right into this, but okay. Then the samples of work. This is really great. It gives me an overview of the tone, the spirit. I'm getting that it's lifestyle, but it's warm. It’s upbeat. I believe this was for a hospital, or a nursing home, excuse me. It's a little bit surprising also. This is a really interesting approach in terms of what she's selecting for her relevant examples. She’s got several pages of that. I think it's good because it shows consistency in the warmth and the spirit. Could she have edited a few out? Maybe. But I think it does provide a nice overview of what her working style is like and potentially how she intends to shoot for this project.
J: Would you recommend moving this up in the deck, possibly ahead of the shotlist?
B: Yeah, ahead of the shotlist. I really feel at the beginning of any pitch deck, it's “This is me. This is why I want to collaborate with you. This is how I'm going to do it. Then here's the specifics about how we're going to approach it in the tactics and the cost.” You kind of get them hooked in with the romance of working together and the glossy visuals. I think that's why I'm struggling a little bit with the locations right off the bat before the work. Yeah, so I agree there Jenna. The spreadsheet about the cost and everything, that's fine if that's what it looks like. There's not really anything you can do to dress up the numbers, necessarily. Also you want to be really crystal clear about that, so I wouldn't spend too much time getting super fancy or making this looking like highly designed or anything because it just literally has to—
J: I'm going to jump in and I'm going to make a plug here for BlinkBid. I'm not a paid [laughs] sponsor. I love BlinkBid for many reasons, but this is one of them. When I export a PDF of my estimates out of BlinkBid, they look really nice and they give you all of these breakdowns too.
J: Then you can drop that piece of the PDFs into this presentation.That’s one recommendation I might have made here, to use software like BlinkBid that would put out something a little bit prettier. But it's great the way she’s very clearly spelled out every cost, which is exactly what the clients want to see.
B: Exactly. Okay, so maybe we should move on to—oh and the “Thank you” at the end. Obviously it's critical. I'm curious why the image is so small, but it seems like a fun image. [laughs]
J: Oh here’s me! [laughs]
J: I want to have a candid conversation with you, Brian about vertical vs. horizontal. I have been stuck in this Vertical World because when I spit out my BlinkBid estimate, it's vertical. I've been working in this template which you’ve helped me with, but I wonder if there is a way—and we'll go through it with everyone—to make the vertical estimate fit into a horizontal presentation because now I want to take the advice you were giving us.
B: Yeah. Honestly, in the last eight months I've literally just talked to people virtually most of the time, and present some of these things, and horizontal has just been working best. It also just gives a lot of the images a lot of room to breathe. Right away I worked with Jenna on her branding in general. [laughs] Her project was really interesting because she represents several photographers, so this is really clear that this is coming from the artist’s, the photographer's rep. I think it is very visually clear that this is already going to have some of the production notes and sets the tone by putting the client first on the title page. I do appreciate having a recognizable brand. If I'm pitching for Jack Daniels, I want to see myself right off the bat on the cover page here.
J: These were the comps that they had shared with me when they sent the initial bid request and this is what we ended up shooting.
B: Okay, great. Yeah. That’s great. If they give you assets to play with, that’s even better. I do like that it starts off with a really nice, brief bio of David as a photographer and some affirmation around the types of clients that he's worked for. And a big plug for the studio, which that’s actually a really amazing asset to not have to find a place to shoot as well.
In my past work with the Museum of Modern Art’s Retail Department, we always went with the photographer that had some space or was able to organize the space, so we don't have another thing we have to think about. It could be included in the price and if you don't have your own space etcetera, but I do like that it's immediately like, “Here’s what we have on offer right off the bat.”
Again, I don't know all of the background on the conversations in this project, but I do recommend that maybe there's a spot for just talking about the collaboration as well. Then segueing into David's work, which is all beautiful, well laid out, and I think would look great horizontal. [laughs]
J: I'm working on one tonight you're going to help me make it horizontal. [laughs]
B: [laughs] Then, going down to this tool kit idea, which Jenna and I have been talking about. This touches a little bit on how to leverage the work. It makes it very clear in a very simple way that you're going to pay x amount for these assets, but look at the different combinations and the different things you’ll be able to do with them as part of this price package. I think this is a great slide to add that talks about how the assets could be used in unique ways to leverage the work that you’re paying for.
J: Absolutely. I have to give credit to the photographer here, David, who I know is on this call. When he saw the initial ask,which is some of the concepts, and realized that we would be shooting these cocktails and the bottles for these specific layouts, that it might be a sort of value-add—like you talked about, Brian—for us to tell them that we he would shoot them in a way that they would have assets that could work in many other campaigns as well. So, I guess maybe “tool kit” is the new word for “library.”
This is a word we’ve been hearing from a lot of our clients lately. It was something that David recommended we pitch to this client; we're all in the studio for three days anyways, let's shoot these drinks in a few different ways so that we're giving you more value for the dollar spent and creating this library or the tool kit that this client can then use in other campaigns.
B: Right. The next two pages, I would just flip them so that David talks about his approach and then I would go into the shot list. That would just be a minor thing for the next time. To me, the shot list is a nice segue to the actual numbers right. You go from the romance again to the more tactical elements that we're going to be doing. Then the numbers follow towards the end. Then there's the “Thank you.” I know the numbers aren't part of this.
J: That’s for another conversation.
B: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway, everything is very clear, there’s a nice indication at the top of the page that says what you're looking at next. I think it’s very clear and focused and concise.
J: Thank you, Brian.
B: Our next one, okay. So this is the one—
J: Should we skip ahead Brian? Do you think we have time for two more? We have about 10 minutes. Why don’t I skip ahead to another photographer and then we’ll circle back to this one that was a collaboration between two teams. This one is stunning and I want mine to look like this. I think this will be a good one to wrap with. This is the goal for all of us. I’ll go fast. Here we go.
This is another photographer’s and I think it’s a really great one for Brian to break down because a lot of the submissions we received looked like this. I’ll let you speak to it Brian, but it includes all of the really important, but it could maybe use a little design boost.
B: Exactly. All of the information is here, it just almost needs to be spread out. Particularly the second page, which has got everything about the approach, your inspiration, and relevant images, it just does not have enough space in this current layout to really inspire. It has some really inspiring things in it. From a design perspective, it's not getting the chance to breathe and let you soak in the approach.
In my mind, it’s all about setting the tone with your understanding of the project, who you are as a photographer and creative, and here's your relevant examples, and here's how I want to approach each of your shots. I think it's great that each shot is outlined, that there's some swipe there. But I think it could just be each shot could be on a page with your relevant examples and some mood boards. You have to be careful to make sure if you are using swipe, make sure that it's noted that way. I think this is fine the way it is, but everything could just have a little bit more room to breathe and it would be a little bit more inspiring.
Again, showing what you can bring to the table with your relevant examples, which maybe doesn't have to be in each shot. It could be like what David did and Kelly, where they have a mosaic of relevant examples from your photography portfolio. Then just let the mood boards sit with your creative approach. I think this one's got all the elements it just could benefit from some design in there to really help inspire.
J: I think it’s important to remember that agencies are used to seeing 20 page decks. So don't be afraid to use more space and make this document 10 pages or more.
B: Right. It doesn't have to be like in my early design days, my resume always had to be on one page. As a designer, that's like a bad thing to have a two-page resume. [laughs] On a grander scale here, this pitch, you don't want to be really overly spacious, but you want to be concise, like I said earlier. It’s just really giving room to inspire with the thoughts on your creative process, would help this, I believe.
J: I think this next one does a really good job of that and it's a great one to end with.
B: Yes, so this one is the one that Marianne mentioned at the beginning. From the very beginning, it's very much a very friendly, warm approach; “We're excited to get on the water with you,” then this idea of friendly competition.Then that there's a team involved that’s going to pull the story out for you and that they're confident that they're going to be able to pull something together that’s really terrific for the client. Then it segues into about the team, which doesn't have to be overly verbose, but it does very quickly tell you a little bit about each. So, this is Marianne and Animus partnering together, then it just gives examples. For Animus, actually, all this is videos; you can actually click on these PDFs and the videos come up, which is nice to be able to see those examples of relevant work. Then Marianne's examples follow. Again, mosaic works fine. It's very clear who's doing what in each of these boards of creative examples. Then it seques into how they’re going to approach this.
One thing that I found really interesting about this particular pitch deck, is that there's three options outlined here on what we could do for incrementally more dollars. There's three different creative approaches. The first one, maybe let's say this is what you, Brian, the client are asking me to do. It's one day of filming, there's a crew, we're going to do some interviews, and the narrative will be—this is what you asked for. Then, the subsequent ones are if you wanted to do some additional—if you wanted to add a drone and this is what you could do with it, and it all of a sudden becomes, “I hadn't thought of that, maybe that's something that I want.” It’s an interesting way to upsell. The third one is talking about a documentary film about this competition and it’s like, “Oh wow, I think I need that too.” It’s a subtle upsell, but I think a really interesting idea.
This is not going to work for every project; there might just be, “We need to shoot Jack Daniels bottles and that's it.” But maybe they want some video of the pouring of the liquor or something like that. You can suggest these things and what it additionally might be in case they needed it. That can also come across in your creative call, in conversation too. I'm imagining it doesn't necessarily always have to wait for the pitch.
What I appreciated about this was it was inspiring, it gave options, and it talked in a very brief way about what you could do with the additional assets that you're paying for. It was, of course, very well laid out. The deliverables are here, again short, sweet, just boom boom boom, here's the things that we’re going to be bringing to the table for you. What I also appreciated was these next steps; let's get started, let’s figure out what we need to do, what your next steps are as a creative once you get the job. It makes you feel like, “Okay let's get ready to go.” It has a nice feeling to it at the end. He includes the contact information obviously, or maybe not so obviously, I don't know. Hopefully people remember to put their contact information at the end.
From the submissions that we got, just seeing the variety is really interesting. I know there's a variety of different types of projects, but when you are triple bidding on a project, or there’s seven photographers—oh my God, I don't know if I'd ever do that, that's intense—how do you stand out? So these are some nice examples of, not only the talent variety, but also the approach. Anyways, I think that’s it for us. Marianne?
M: Thank you guys. That was really great. It’s especially nice to see the examples and hear you talk about the details inside them, that’s really cool. Thank you. And thank you to Kateshia, and Kelly Davidson, and David Butler, and Marianne Lee for submitting. It's really helpful and it's always great when people are willing to share things.
We've got questions. I’m going to remind you, if you have questions you'd like answered, please put them in the Q&A and I'll answer them there. If you want to just say, “Hi” to anybody, feel free to use the chat.
I'm going to start right at the top from Gabriella. She asked, “Do you find clients are straightforward in responding to the question of whether a job didn't come through because of creative or numbers?
J: I will answer that one. I actually asked a producer this last week. I asked her, “Are you always forthcoming with, one, the fact that the photographer lost the bid, and two, that information. She said you have to develop a thick skin as a producer, and I think that we do too on our side of it. Photographers need to learn how to take rejection. It's important, no matter when you feel that rejection, to ask the question about why, because that's how you're going to grow as an artist. I think that most producers, art producers are willing to give that information if they are asked in the right way, if you're asking in a way that is respectful and is a genuine ask so that you as an artist can grow and you can maybe understand the market a little bit better. But I think that if it's coming from a place of disappointment and anger, then they might be less likely to answer the question.
M: That’s interesting. Thanks. So, Gabriella, I hope that answers your question.
The next one is Joe—I'm going to say his last name because I think it’s cool—Joe Rondinelli. I hope I pronounced it right. He says, “Hello Brian and Jenna, would you recommend putting a generic treatment on your website—obviously one that doesn't suck—to demonstrate your creative ability and understanding of the importance of the deck/ process?” I guess what he’s asking is, would it be good to put something on your website that would be a generic treatment to show how you work to prospective clients?
J: I would argue that your website is that in and of itself. The content and design of your website should give them that information and that this pitch deck, this bid treatment is sort of a consolidated version of that that is also tailored to the specific act. So, it will look a lot like your website, in terms of the branding, it will have samples of your images that might already live on your website, it will have your bio. But then it's also going to have the information that pertains to how you're going to approach this project and how well you understand what the ask is.
But I think Brian will also weigh in on this.
B: I do think in your bio or about the artist section, to be able to talk a little bit about what you bring to the table and your strengths, is okay. I think just what Jenna said. Each client is going to expect that you're tailoring this just for them and if they see something on your website and then see again in a bid treatment, you're not doing yourself a favor. So, I would save that aspect of your approach for a very tailored experience with your potential client.
M: That makes a lot of sense. After I saw the pitch deck that you guys saw with the boat company and Animus Studios, I thought that was pretty awesome. I personally would like to create something that's generic enough that when the clients come in I can tailor it to them; it’s sort of pre-made to make it easier for me and then I would go in and tweak it to each situation. I also have some clients that would need this, some clients that probably don't know they need it, but would love it, and other clients that I just really want to knock their socks off because I really maybe want the job. I would say this is in my future. [laughs]
Kate asks, “Do you feel it’s okay to show someone else’s work in a mood board included in a treatment or should you only show your own work?” That’s a good question.
J: I’m curious to hear what you have to say about this, Brian. I have never done that, but from the client's side, from the creative director’s point of view, if the photographer clearly listed the work that was not theirs and then it was more of an inspiration than a moodboard, would you be accepting of that?
B: I would be, particularly when talking about if you don't have a specific example of the lighting that you plan to use, if you’re talking about your creative approach and it's very clear that, “here's an example of what I'm going for,” I understand that. I'm not worried, I'm not confused, as long as it's clearly indicated that this is the spirit of what you want to accomplish. Obviously, if you have a specific example in your portfolio, 100% use that instead, 100% percent. Even if it's not as relevant to the project, but you want to use a section of it and say, “This is how I plan on lighting this,” or, “Here’s the type of set I want to build,” or something like that. I feel like as long as you’re really clear, I don't have any issues with that. As long as I’m not like, “Wow! I think that’s a Richard Avedon, it’s not yours. Why is that in your samples of work?” [laughs] That's a different issue.
J: Then you have to be prepared to speak to the fact that they will know that you have maybe never before shot that way. That’s where your artist’s statement comes in where you describe that you know how to do this, maybe you don't already have it in your book, but you absolutely know how to do that—this is how you’ll produce it, this is how you’ll light it—to give them that confidence.
M: Excellent! Good answer for that one.
We have another good question from Kate. She says, “Clients often ask me for an initial general estimate before they have confirmed the shot list. Would you still create a full treatment at that level?”
J: I'm doing this right now. actually. I just had an agency call me yesterday, and it’s, as usual, fast and furious, and they're trying to decide if they want to shoot it or not, and maybe they'll do the CGI instead. So, they asked me, one, if I could provide a ballpark number by this morning, and two, on Thursday, tomorrow, to receive the final shot list and then make a real estimate. I did give them a ballpark because I felt confident that I had an understanding of what the shot list might look like. But I was very specific in the ballpark about how many shots might be included, how many days of shooting, and also a very wide range of dollars. Tomorrow I will take the final shot list and do a real treatment. That will have the firm cost estimate and then this whole treatment that we just talked about, in terms of samples of the photographer's work and his statement about how he would approach it.
I guess, to answer your question, I wouldn't do it at this stage, as a ballparking stage, because you probably don't have enough information about what the ask is creatively. You probably haven't yet had a creative call when you can ask questions and take in all the information.
M: Yeah. I'll just speak to that a little bit on my own experience. I often won't ballpark with the clients that I have. I find that you end up wasting time because once you get down to the day of, there’s shots added and I may end up with nothing in my estimate. If I have a sneaking suspicion that shots will be added later, I will add something in there to accommodate that. It might be my creative fee, my creative for the project and then each scene might be $5. I’m going to use ridiculous numbers so you don’t all focus on the numbers, so it might be like $5. Then each additional image or scene might be another $5. Then I’ll base the estimate on whatever they told me. They've told me five scenes, so if we get there and all of a sudden they want to do eight scenes, I can be like, “Okay we’re just going to add this in here,” and make sure that we have that conversation to communicate it. But I'll leave room in my estimate to do that. I think when I put that estimate together I would be doing a treatment like this because this is my future professional look. I'm going to be heading in this direction every chance I get. That’s just me.
Okay so, Frank—I'm going to tackle this Polish last name so I hope everybody’s ready—Rogozienski, he would love it if you could answer a question about fitting estimates into the horizontal format. He's settling on sending them separately. Any thoughts? I think he's asking, should the thing that you get from BlinkBid—because it probably comes out vertically—how can you put that into a horizontal frame? Or should they be sent separately?
J: Yeah, I have that question too.Thank you for asking it. I’m curious to hear what Brian says because that’s what I’m going to do for my next bid treatment. [laughs]
B: I mean, I feel like my gut is telling me you could pair it with something. You could almost dress up your estimate with some sort of image just to balance it out. If you're concerned about them being able to see it specifically, I might do a recap or a high-level estimate, just the three bullet points, [hand gestures] “pre-pro, day of, and blah blah blah equals this much money.” Then have the specifics next to it on one page. You're giving that high-level with some context of what adds up to the final number, but you have it right there if anybody wants to zero in on some of the specifics.
That would be my recommendation because if I'm presenting it to the president of the museum, it’s just, “Here’s the budget.” I'm glad I have all the specifics, but what you want to know is it's going to cost me x amount of money, for this amount of usage, for this amount of time. Then, just graphically, you can have a couple of lines over on the left and then have the support for if there's any reason why. Nine times out of ten nobody wants them. Aside from me and the producer, whatever, those are the ones who need to dial into the specifics, so it's there in the presentation, you have—I hate using the word executive summary—the budget right there on the left and larger.
J: I think that’s a great solution.
M: Do you think there would be any downside to sending this treatment including what you just talked about, but then also including a vertical PDF of the actual numbers?
B: I don't think so. As long as it’s separate, it's not tacked on to the end or whatever. Yeah.
M: Alright, cool. There was actually another question about that, so thank you for answering that.
Mary asked, “If clients are often looking for a photographer that has done a similar job, or worked with a team that is the same as what's needed on a job, what are good ideas of strategy to get that experience in another way that gives a client the confidence that you can do the job properly without having the exact experience they're looking for?
J: Testing. Test, test, test. Especially now when a lot of photographers are experiencing a slowdown in business, it's time to test. Don't sit at home. Everyone’s had the time to redo their website, redo their portfolio. Now is the time to get back into the studio, back onto location and create new images for your book, but also to hone your skills and realize what you're good at or what you need to work on. If you are missing more portraits on location, then find a model, find a real person, bring in a stylist. A lot of crew members are also looking to build their books and their experience and they're willing to test. That's often a time to create portfolio images without the limitations of a client.
So, I would say the best way to get yourself that experience is to go out and just do it yourself. Then, when you're on a creative call or you're writing your treatment you have actual experience to talk about; “when I was shooting portraits on location last week, this is how I approached the lighting, or this is how I approached the production.” You have some real time examples. It's fine that it wasn't for a client. They're just interested in the fact that you've done it and you had success and you can show them the examples of the work that came out of it.
M: Jenna, as a little bit of a sidewinder to that, I would be curious what you advise your photographer's if they’re maybe looking for inspiration. Should they be looking at clients that they want to work for and trying to shoot work related to that? Or should they be driven by their own inspiration, maybe they see something that triggers something?
J: It’s a good question. The way I always answer it is that shooting what you think your clients want can be a slippery slope. You always want to stay true to who you are as an artist, and what your strengths are, and what your goals are. But if that creative falls in line with all of those things, then absolutely. Go for it. If, for example, David Butler shoots a lot of liquids and product and we’ve seen recently an increased ask for splashes, more of these beverage brands are doing splashes, if he has some time in the studio he might test splashes. That is not at all out of line with what he does, he does splashes, but maybe he needs to do different kinds of splashes, or new splashes, or different beverages splashing. It’s not a departure from who he is as an artist, but he’s keeping a pulse of what his market is asking for and what's hot right, what brands really want to show, but doing it in his own way.
M: So really keeping an eye on the trends.
J: Yeah, I think keeping an eye on the trends and really knowing who you are. I just hate it when photographers are like, “I usually shoot lifestyle, but I see there's a lot of clients in Boston who need food, so I think I'm going to go test some food.” I feel like if you're a lifestyle photographer you should focus on that and you should be really good at it, not try to be 10 different kinds of photographer and maybe not be good at any of them.
M: So that's a whole nother webinar. [laughs] So, guys, if you have any more questions, we still have a little bit of time. Just put them right in the Q&A and we’ll get to them. Hello Elaine Frederick. [waves]
This next one is from a very new photographer, Johnny Zhang. He says, “Do you have any suggestions for steps to grow as an up-and-coming photographer?” He's only been a photographer for less than a year, full time since last November. Oh man, and then COVID hit. He says the presentation is extremely helpful. And another way of asking, he says, should he be working with an agency or can he make it work as a freelance photographer?
So there’s a lot to [air quotes] unpack. [laughs]
J: [laughs] Yes you can! I think by “agency” he probably means rep. So, I would say you can absolutely begin your career as a freelancer who is not represented by someone like me. This is the time for you to test a lot, and realize what kind of photographer you are, and what you want your focus to be, what your specialty will be. I will tell you that we are in a pandemic, but there's a lot of shooting happening. Don’t feel like they're not opportunities. So, I would keep trying to build your portfolio, and market your work, and know that there are opportunities out there.
Brian, I can kick this to you in terms of how he can promote himself to a client like you as a new photographer who won't come to the table yet with tons of experience, tons of work samples. How can he pitch himself to you?
B: Sure. I just want to add there's always assisting other photographers and getting a sense of how this type of work happens, and connecting when you're on set with people, you're connecting with people. One thing also, and I know we’re in a pandemic, but networking is completely just so important. Being a part of this ASMP is great. At one point, I actually helped start a creative networking group just so that we could diversify, we could get some cross pollination for Adhesive & Co, which is now a production agency. They do some networking events, but really trying to make personal connections once we get a vaccine, I suppose. That was back in the day. [laughs]
I always enjoy seeing photographer's work, so sending a promo the old school way is great. I do not like getting hounded on the phone. But I do feel like doing some of the standard promotions is a way to get in front, just really understanding who your network is. Even through LinkedIn, and your social media, talking about some of the shoots and collaborations. There's so many ways to get your work out there and to follow, don't stalk, but follow some of the brand's and creatives that you admire. It's a lot of work. I remember being a junior designer and you want to start working and you want to do all the things, but there is a certain amount of legwork and getting to know the people in the industry. There's so many different ways to do that these days.
I hope that was a helpful answer.
M: Both of those answers were really helpful. Johnny, I'm not sure where you are, but many of our chapters are still holding Zoom events around the country. Actually, at the moment I guess it doesn’t matter where you are. If you take a look on our events page on our website, there's a list there of all the things that are happening. Our New York chapter regularly has a town hall meeting, I believe it's pretty regular, I can't remember the frequency of it at the moment. But it’s definitely a place to just hop on, it’s open chat, so that could be pretty helpful. I know our Colorado chapter has a coffee chat happening. I believe that’s maybe once a month. Again it’s something you can just hop onto, it's just an open chat.
I think networking with other photographers is extremely valuable, especially as you’re up-and-coming. All of our ASMP members are really interested in helping other people and helping the industry. If you find any that aren't, let me know about them ASAP. [laughs] I think in general you’ll find ASMP members willing to share information, willing to help you out, willing to talk to you about how they got to where they are. I had a conversation with somebody just before this call about licensing. I realized she was in Rhode Island, maybe someday we’ll meet in person. But ASMP is trying to provide a lot of those opportunities right now because we realize it’s hard to reach out. So. keep going. If you have any questions, or are interested in meeting people, or are looking for those events, feel free to email me marianne@asmp-board.org.
B: Marianne what you said and the importance of mentors too, I think that can come out of these relationships with ASMP, etcetera. There are folks that are willing to share their experiences.
M: The next question that we have is from Ian. He asked, “Do you suggest putting pitch decks or bids like these together to send to new clients as a first encounter type of piece, or is it better to try and make contact first and then create decks to send?”
It’s an interesting question because I could see something like this maybe being a promo piece. I think it would have different content, but it would be set up similar.
J: Absolutely. I think you could take the elements of this and the design aspects to create, either an electronic promotion that you're attaching to an email, or something you’re even printing. I think what this treatment does that a direct mail or an email promotion should do are: tell a little bit about who you are as an artist, show some examples, and include your branding. The things that you would take out of it, of course are—it's hard to pitch to them how you would approach their brand without first having a conversation.
I’m curious to hear Brian’s thoughts, but I feel like you would have to make a lot of assumptions. Honestly, I feel like anytime I’ve made those assumptions by looking at a brand online or in the store, I get on the phone with the agency and they’re like, “We’re doing a complete rebrand, that’s all trash.” [laughs] So I’ve wasted my time thinking about how we would approach that aesthetic.
B: The assumptions could just lead to them dismissing you entirely, so you have to be really careful about that. Right now, we're working on a creative campaign of what's next once we reopen post-COVID and stuff like that. Some of the stuff that we're doing now just might not be relevant anymore. I would err on the side of showing you work, speaking your strengths and taking some of—as Jenna said—those elements out of the pitch deck and repackaging it as a promo piece, or a way to reach out.
M: Thank you for that, both of you.
We’ve got one from our good friend, David Butler, the one and only. This is for Brian. He asks, “How much does social media presence of an artist affect the pitch or bid process? For example, are you researching how they work via behind-the-scenes or getting a sense of personality via their posts?”
B: That is interesting because that is certainly an extension of your brand, so it does impact. I don't necessarily—I'm not in the business where I'm like, “This person has x amount of followers and I'm going to choose them because of that.” I work for the Natural History Museums here in LA and that's not important to us, personally in terms of reach. But, in terms of being able to open up, if you're able to, about behind-the-scenes about how you approach things, or even, honestly, the things that inspire you. It doesn't have to be a professionally shot photo, it could just be, “David really enjoys taking hikes.” I don’t know where you live. [laughs] Especially with Instagram, you can get a sense of somebody's personality if they're authentic on their platform.
For me, personally, it’s not one of the main drivers. I do like seeing not super perfect work; I can go to your portfolio for that. It’s almost like seeing your journal. What are you thinking about when you do create stuff? I enjoy that and it sheds a little bit more light into, rather than just taking the photos from your website and putting them on your Instagram. I always love seeing Jenna. Jenna's out there shooting, she’s doing all this stuff. That's the exciting part; she’s out there, she’s working, she's doing stuff. Or you're out there on a test shoot, exploring different things, etcetera—being a little bit less precious. I know that there are people that have different opinions on that, but that's my perspective on it.
M: We've got time for two more questions. I'm purposely saving one for last. Jennifer asked, “What program would you suggest using to build the bid treatment?”
I know there's a program called Canva, where you can build those things out. Brian, do you have something that the not designer-photographer might have access to that would work?
B: Jenna and I were going through this when we're doing this presentation. I use Keynote for everything. It comes with Mac. When I worked at Twitter, they did so much pitching and they did everything in keynote. It was a way where most people were able to use it. Google Slides is not great. Canva, I was actually forced to use once. [laughs] It actually has some nice benefits for the non-designer for sure. I would also suggest that you build a relationship with a graphic designer. Usually, for a small amount of time, you can get a template that works for you built in a program that you have, obviously. Ultimately, you’re going to export as a PDF to whoever you’re pitching. It’s really what you're most comfortable in. Personally, Keynote is my go-to.
M: Brian, it seemed like the proposal that you showed with myself and Animus, they built that on Keynote. Somehow it came to me over the internet and I was able to actually work on it before. So, is there an online situation?
B: There is a cloud situation. I’m glad you mentioned that. Keynote you can actually work on a document together. That's one of the benefits of Google Slides as well; you can both be literally working on it in a hang out. Keynote has a cloud option so that you can be both collaborating on the same document if you have multiple—in the instance that you had, Marianne, with your collaborator, you guys could be working on it together.
J: I would love to reiterate Brian’s comment about spending the money up front to hire a graphic designer to make a template for you, especially for those of us who are limited in their graphic design skills. To pay some money up front to have a template that you can easily tweak with the specs of each bid, it's like gold.
M: Yeah, that's going to be my next step to my future pitch deck template. [laughs] I have a few relationships with several designers that I work with and we're often speaking with each other about different projects. That speaks to your network too. Johnny and other emerging photographers, you want to grow your network beyond just photographers. You want to be meeting website designers. You want to be meeting designers. Even freelance people and non-freelance people, look around your community. There are still so many networking opportunities happening. Some of them are happening on Facebook, in Facebook groups. I think there are some Slack Channels where things are happening. You want to just keep an eye out for those things.
Alright, our last question. This one’s a good one! I hope you guys are ready! This one’s from Karina. She asked, “What are some mistakes you’ve seen photographers make after being selected after the bid process?” So that's kind of an interesting twist on that; the photographer has gotten the bid and afterwards maybe something happens?
J: After being awarded?
M: Yeah, it looks like what that question says. I think we can also expand that question a little bit to, “What are some mistakes you've seen in the bid process?” I hope that’s okay Karina. [laughs]
J: [laughs] Well, I highlighted that one story that was really shocking, about the photographer who was one of seven being considered, and really botched the creative call, and then was dropped off the list. I think a few things that could go wrong in the bidding process are not handling yourself well on the creative call, not having a pitch, your bid treatment ready. I've heard from producers that if they receive a one-page bid treatment,they’re going to toss it. It's not enough for them, they expect to see more. Right off the bat, seeing one page is a turn-off for them.
I could go on and on about that, but to answer her real question about mistakes—this is something that Brian brought up and something I am hyper aware of—is going over budget. Once you're awarded the job and they have signed your cost estimate, it's your job or your producer’s job to do everything they can to stay on budget. If you go over budget, they're not going to want to work with you again. There are many other repercussions, but the fact of the matter is that they will not be a repeat client of yours.
Of course, there are changes in scope. This job that was represented in the treatment that I shared here today, the scope changed as we moved through the production. But it's a big agency and they were great partners with me throughout the process. As the scope changed, I changed the cost estimate, they approved it, and then we sort of produced against that. It's all about having that collaboration. I keep saying this word, but this constant collaboration with your new client, in terms of staying on budget, among many other things.
Also on deadline, I guess that could be another big miss. Missing their deadline, not only in terms of shoot date, but also post production. Many clients have a very specific date that they need to have final files in hand because maybe they're trying to hit print run packaging or a web update deadline, so it's really important to understand that those dates are firm and to never miss those deadlines.
Brian, what would you say?
B: Number one is you can't go over budget. [laughs] The communication, if there’s scope creep, I totally understand, but it needs to be ironed out before that final invoice. It becomes potentially even more awkward than the initial budget conversation is having this conversation about, “Oh yeah we've got like this other couple thousand dollars we need from you” and it's like, “What!?”
Anyway, I've had a few instances where—I call them “diva antics”— there’s egos happening in the room. In my career, it's only happened a few times, but you're 100% not going to get signed up the next time if you're going to piss off the client. You’ve got to be your best self and focusing on getting the work done. The conversations about creative should be clear. If there is a misunderstanding, it can be handled in a discreet way. Sometimes, there's some on set antics that are happening and it's got to be handled professionally otherwise you will not be asked back.
Also, if you can't live up to what you're saying your strengths are like, “I'm a people person!” and then you can't get somebody to smile, that’s a problem. Anyway, you just have to be really authentic up front in your pitch so that you can’t overpromise and under-deliver. That’s 100%.
M: That’s all really great advice.
One other thing I would add, if you're not at the level where you're doing these big pitches with a producer and all of that, I think that you should still expect professionalism and excellence from yourself. I think that you should aim high in everything you do, which is why this pitch deck is going to be my new future.
The other thing that I think is important is if you're unsure of something, use your mentors and your contacts within ASMP. I almost always, on my bigger jobs, will send my estimate to another photographer. I have a group of photographers, depending on what kind of job it is. They all know me pretty well, so it's really easy to send them what I've got. We've talked about pricing together before. This is a group of people I've known for a long time and they’ll often tell me, “Marianne, you’re not charging enough for yourself here” or, “You’re going to get short-changed over here,” or, “Maybe you should spell your name right.” I think all those things are really important and having that network to be able to send these things too is really important.
We're going to wrap it up there. I just want to say a huge thank you to Jenna and Brian. This has really been a lot of information. It’s been really great. The webinar is being recorded and we will send you a link once it’s up. I know some people had a little trouble logging in, so thanks for your patience and getting in. I'm looking forward to seeing you all at our next Canon business event in November. Thank you!
B: Thank you and good luck everybody!
J: Thank you!